If it were me, now that you have had it on the road for a bit, and presumably tilted it both ways just driving it, i would take a minute and a tupperware container or old soda bottle and pull the drain plug on the axle. If you leave it, it could weep for months. Pulling that plug on level ground will only take a couple minutes, and will end the seepage.
I thought you got alloy axleshafts lke the ones from US Alloy (I am running those). The Alloys have thread-in lug studs, not the press-fit Jeep style. Those typically loosen as you tighten the lug nuts especially if the lug nuts are worn. Those need loc-tite or a spot weld.
Your press fit studs are probably fine. They will seat themselves as you drive the Jeep. Make sure to re-tighten the lugs to factory spec after 500 and 1000 miles from now. That will help them seat fully. Otherwise, you can try using a ball-joint press (looks like a bic C-clamp with an open end). I know that you can rent presses from auto parts stores around here.
The D-44 has a longer nose than your old axle, which, even though you shimmed it, makes those driveshaft angles worse. You are right to do the SYE and new shaft. If you want a stop-gap measure, there are a couple companies that offer offset u-joints that can flex more than normal. It would be worth a try (for less than $50 instead of $350).
Do you have any dents in your driveshaft? Extra noise coasting seems strange to me. Try pulling it and driving around for a day in 4wd. I wonder if you might have slop at the axle, and need to re-shim it.
I am glad you are getting a lot out of Jeeping. I certainly spend at least 2 hours in the garage for every one on the trail, and a lot more than that in the winter. It never gets old for me. I learned to weld and fabricate with metal. I enjoy that as well as the usual auto-mechanic stuff. Since I have started Jeeping I have begun wrenching on anything that moves from my wife's car to the kids go kart, and I love it. Sharing that with other Jeepers in any way is great. It brings us all together.
Are you involved in the wheeling scene out there? At this point you should find time to join a club if you have not done so already. It gives you chances to go Jeeping, as well as a network of Jeepers nearby. Both of which are invaluable to me.
-bc
Thursday, July 8, 2010
Seals and Studs
Thanks... I think you are onto the leaking pinion seal problem. I did not remove the pinion seal since it was not leaking when it was sitting full. I do not know the history of the axle before I got it; but I know it came from a junk yard and since it was off an 87 or 88, good chance it had just been sitting for a while. I did over fill the axle, I thought I was being smart by doing this since the axle was dry (tilted it from side to side to drain all the oil I could) and the extra would compensate for re-lubing into the axle ends... perhaps I put a bit too much in. I also used a synthetic gear oil which would further explain the leaking since the synthetic is thinner oil. Is it worth taking any out, or should I just let it drip for a bit and monitor it to see if it stops within a few weeks?
I also like your take on the lug nut studs. The axle has new studs that were installed prior to me purchasing. However I noticed that the stud backs are not flush with the hubs. I thought they were in enough since they are pressed in; and seemed tight enough. Probably not tight enough. Do I need specialty tools to finish pressing lug studs in all the way? Jeep does run smooth and does not seem to have any additional vibration other than the driveshaft. (tested by running down the highway for 30 miles.)
I was surprised that the driveshaft vibration does seem to be worse with the 44 than the 35 was especially since I added shims to correct a bit of the angle. I am pretty sure that the increase in vibration is from the driveshaft angle since the sound the driveshaft makes when I left off the gas at speed also got louder.
I must say that I have had as much fun learning and building this jeep as I do wheeling it. I did not expect that; but good thing since I put much more time in under the jeep than in the dirt... Thanks again for all the help.
I also like your take on the lug nut studs. The axle has new studs that were installed prior to me purchasing. However I noticed that the stud backs are not flush with the hubs. I thought they were in enough since they are pressed in; and seemed tight enough. Probably not tight enough. Do I need specialty tools to finish pressing lug studs in all the way? Jeep does run smooth and does not seem to have any additional vibration other than the driveshaft. (tested by running down the highway for 30 miles.)
I was surprised that the driveshaft vibration does seem to be worse with the 44 than the 35 was especially since I added shims to correct a bit of the angle. I am pretty sure that the increase in vibration is from the driveshaft angle since the sound the driveshaft makes when I left off the gas at speed also got louder.
I must say that I have had as much fun learning and building this jeep as I do wheeling it. I did not expect that; but good thing since I put much more time in under the jeep than in the dirt... Thanks again for all the help.
Leaking Pinion Seal
You don't think it could be the bearings? They have not gotten hot to touch after 15 minutes of driving. I am driving 40 miles today; so I will test them for heat when I finish the trip. Unrelated: My pinion seal is also leaking. It did not leak while up on stands for a few wks; but it has a small leak now.
I am going to call Tom Woods with my measurements this week and price it out w/ shipping. I will let you know if I definately decide on his combo and that would be awesome if you are not using the gift certificate!
REPLY
There is a small chance that the bearings or race could be mis seated, but it is really hard to get that wrong, unless you didn't get them all the way on, and the space is between the axle and the bearing... but then you would be hard pressed to notice it. It would be more likely to be loose lug nut studs or something. Mine backed themselves out when i was tightening the nuts. Lots of lock tite and i still ended up spot welding the studs on for safety.
Look at where the pinion seal is leaking and whether you put the seal in backwards. I would have to double check on the NAXJA forum, but I believe that the cup ring is IN, which should show you the spring around the pinion when you look at it.
The reason it might leak now is because the fluid gets thinner as you drive and it can seep out hot when it would not otherwise have leaked. It might just be overfull. I would watch it for a week or so and see if the leaking stops. Don't worry about the gears. I have run 90% mud in mine for a year with no issues. It would leak out the axle tubes and smoke on the brakes. It would mist and look like the BP spill in the gulf all over the tailgate. Gear iol always looks worse than it really is, and if it is overfull, it is going to find a way out somewhere.
I am going to call Tom Woods with my measurements this week and price it out w/ shipping. I will let you know if I definately decide on his combo and that would be awesome if you are not using the gift certificate!
REPLY
There is a small chance that the bearings or race could be mis seated, but it is really hard to get that wrong, unless you didn't get them all the way on, and the space is between the axle and the bearing... but then you would be hard pressed to notice it. It would be more likely to be loose lug nut studs or something. Mine backed themselves out when i was tightening the nuts. Lots of lock tite and i still ended up spot welding the studs on for safety.
Look at where the pinion seal is leaking and whether you put the seal in backwards. I would have to double check on the NAXJA forum, but I believe that the cup ring is IN, which should show you the spring around the pinion when you look at it.
The reason it might leak now is because the fluid gets thinner as you drive and it can seep out hot when it would not otherwise have leaked. It might just be overfull. I would watch it for a week or so and see if the leaking stops. Don't worry about the gears. I have run 90% mud in mine for a year with no issues. It would leak out the axle tubes and smoke on the brakes. It would mist and look like the BP spill in the gulf all over the tailgate. Gear iol always looks worse than it really is, and if it is overfull, it is going to find a way out somewhere.
Tuesday, July 6, 2010
Testing axle and dealing with the heat
Brian Carpenter July 6 at 3:56pm
Be careful towing a Jeep with a Jeep. It is often not a matter of power, but wheelbase. you want to keep the front / rear of the tow rig's wheelbase larger than the rear/trailer distance. It can be overcome if you flat tow, but then you are wearing tires, and wouldn't go anywhere if the Jeep really breaks good. Some of that can be overcome with a good set of trailer brakes, but maneuvering the trailer can be shaky in different situations.
I had no idea that Tom Woods offered a deal like that. it really is a good price, and his driveshafts are the best. You should check... I think I still have a gift certificate that i won at a Jeep raffle a year or two ago. If it will do you good, let me know and i will mail it to you. It is either $50 or $100. I have no use for it. I have made the last few driveshafts I have needed. I don't run high horsepower or high speed, so i can get away with that.
Your D44 'shim' sounds to me like you might have the axles in backwards. It is slight, but there is a variance. One is longer. (driver's side to compensate for the thickness of the gears on the carrier I think) You can run a shorter one in the longer side, but not the other way around. It should be easy enough to check, but if it is 101 degrees, you may want to wait for a cold snap.
Other ways to test it... pull the rear driveshaft and run it around the block in 4wd. if the noise is gone, that was your problem. With the stock shaft, tape on a plastic baggie to the slip yoke to keep the extra fluid in, and top it off when you get back home. It won't cure the growl of the flowmaster, but it will help. You could try it and shut the engine off / slip into neutral and coast down a hill to listen to the running gear.
Here it is in the 90s (three days and counting). they say ti is our first heat wave in six years. OOOhhh. Everybody is melting, staying inside with the lights out. It never really bothers me. It just sounds like topless weather for the Willys. :-)
I had no idea that Tom Woods offered a deal like that. it really is a good price, and his driveshafts are the best. You should check... I think I still have a gift certificate that i won at a Jeep raffle a year or two ago. If it will do you good, let me know and i will mail it to you. It is either $50 or $100. I have no use for it. I have made the last few driveshafts I have needed. I don't run high horsepower or high speed, so i can get away with that.
Your D44 'shim' sounds to me like you might have the axles in backwards. It is slight, but there is a variance. One is longer. (driver's side to compensate for the thickness of the gears on the carrier I think) You can run a shorter one in the longer side, but not the other way around. It should be easy enough to check, but if it is 101 degrees, you may want to wait for a cold snap.
Other ways to test it... pull the rear driveshaft and run it around the block in 4wd. if the noise is gone, that was your problem. With the stock shaft, tape on a plastic baggie to the slip yoke to keep the extra fluid in, and top it off when you get back home. It won't cure the growl of the flowmaster, but it will help. You could try it and shut the engine off / slip into neutral and coast down a hill to listen to the running gear.
Here it is in the 90s (three days and counting). they say ti is our first heat wave in six years. OOOhhh. Everybody is melting, staying inside with the lights out. It never really bothers me. It just sounds like topless weather for the Willys. :-)
driveshafts and daily drivers
Summer is the worst time to go wheeling here. It is too hot! 110 plus daily in the desert. Things don't work very well in that heat, and tend to fail more often. Our last trips out to the desert are in Easter time. Fall is start of the season in so cal. There are some great places I want to check out in Nor Cal; but we have not make it wheeling up there yet as it takes a full day just to drive there.
The 44 is on! Took a better part of the day; but I did not have any voulenteers and was able to get it on myselft. I need cables off a 98 grand to set the parking brake up as the ends are different. My end for the 35 drums have a cylinder end that fits through a slot to lock in. The bracket on the 98 disks are more of a tab so I am guessing the end of the cables I need looks more like a loop. Do you know if a shop can just put new ends onto an existing cable? Mine are fine; just wont connect.
The 44 is up and running. When I put it on, I noticed that one of the wheels has the slightest bit of shim. Not a shim I can see when I tilt the wheel top to bottom; but a shim I can hear. Interestingly enough, there is no shim sight, motion, or sound when shimmimg side to side, only top to bottom. The other side does not have any shim at all. There is no sounds or increased vibrations I can hear/feel while driving it the few test miles I have taken it on so far. (Though the driveshaft has enought virbation to far out rival the exhaust; so I am not sure if there actually is any noices; that I just can not hear. I am going to put on a SYE and longer driveshaft soon. I plan to order the SYE this week and hit the junk yard for a front drive shaft for the rear as you noted. I also priced tom woods, and his combo kits for SYE kit and new drive shaft start at $350 for very nice kits. Since the SYE kit is $220+ most everywhere that is not a bad price for a new shaft and SYE kit. Our junk yards in so cal are not know to have "bargain deals"... unless you trek 150+ miles out into the desert to the little towns.
You noted the the classic car idea. I would love an old car of many types; and will have some later in life; but right now, I can only have one project car. Cherokee fits that bill.
We are also considering some other practical cars as the 3rd veihicle - older V8 Grand Cherokee - for price reasons and it could tow my jeep with little gear added. Newer (but used) grand cherokees, 4 dr jeeps, and commanders - as these could all tow; but we would only get one of these if my wide wants it to be her next car when her volvo goes. I don't really want one of those as my DD. They are also more expensive and may be ruled out for that reason. The 04-06 unlimited rubicon is my favorite on the list and the 2nd cheapest.
Smog restrictions are also really strickt out here on all veihicles post 75 which rules out all of the 80s cars that can be found cheap and cheap to fix, smog equipment make those veihicles no longer cheap to keep compliant. bummer.
The 44 is on! Took a better part of the day; but I did not have any voulenteers and was able to get it on myselft. I need cables off a 98 grand to set the parking brake up as the ends are different. My end for the 35 drums have a cylinder end that fits through a slot to lock in. The bracket on the 98 disks are more of a tab so I am guessing the end of the cables I need looks more like a loop. Do you know if a shop can just put new ends onto an existing cable? Mine are fine; just wont connect.
The 44 is up and running. When I put it on, I noticed that one of the wheels has the slightest bit of shim. Not a shim I can see when I tilt the wheel top to bottom; but a shim I can hear. Interestingly enough, there is no shim sight, motion, or sound when shimmimg side to side, only top to bottom. The other side does not have any shim at all. There is no sounds or increased vibrations I can hear/feel while driving it the few test miles I have taken it on so far. (Though the driveshaft has enought virbation to far out rival the exhaust; so I am not sure if there actually is any noices; that I just can not hear. I am going to put on a SYE and longer driveshaft soon. I plan to order the SYE this week and hit the junk yard for a front drive shaft for the rear as you noted. I also priced tom woods, and his combo kits for SYE kit and new drive shaft start at $350 for very nice kits. Since the SYE kit is $220+ most everywhere that is not a bad price for a new shaft and SYE kit. Our junk yards in so cal are not know to have "bargain deals"... unless you trek 150+ miles out into the desert to the little towns.
You noted the the classic car idea. I would love an old car of many types; and will have some later in life; but right now, I can only have one project car. Cherokee fits that bill.
We are also considering some other practical cars as the 3rd veihicle - older V8 Grand Cherokee - for price reasons and it could tow my jeep with little gear added. Newer (but used) grand cherokees, 4 dr jeeps, and commanders - as these could all tow; but we would only get one of these if my wide wants it to be her next car when her volvo goes. I don't really want one of those as my DD. They are also more expensive and may be ruled out for that reason. The 04-06 unlimited rubicon is my favorite on the list and the 2nd cheapest.
Smog restrictions are also really strickt out here on all veihicles post 75 which rules out all of the 80s cars that can be found cheap and cheap to fix, smog equipment make those veihicles no longer cheap to keep compliant. bummer.
Thursday, July 1, 2010
Drum brake mud problem solver.
A fellow Jeeper told me a great tip for drum brakes.
There has always been a problem getting mud inside the drums which wears the shoes quickly, and lessens the stopping power.
He said that if you drill four small holes in the sidewall of the drum out by the brake surface, they let water and mud escape and will clean out the grit and extend the life of your drum.
Place them at 12, 3, 6, and 9o'clock.
Drill a small hole (between 1/8 inch and 1/4 inch) from the top down with the drum sitting flat on the ground at each point. Compensate for the thickness of the braking surface and drill towards the outside edge. I believe there is a small depression ring on the drum, aim for that. The goal is to make an escape route for mud and water as you drive.
There has always been a problem getting mud inside the drums which wears the shoes quickly, and lessens the stopping power.
He said that if you drill four small holes in the sidewall of the drum out by the brake surface, they let water and mud escape and will clean out the grit and extend the life of your drum.
Place them at 12, 3, 6, and 9o'clock.
Drill a small hole (between 1/8 inch and 1/4 inch) from the top down with the drum sitting flat on the ground at each point. Compensate for the thickness of the braking surface and drill towards the outside edge. I believe there is a small depression ring on the drum, aim for that. The goal is to make an escape route for mud and water as you drive.
Parking brakes 2
Moab would be a dream. We are more than a few years aay from that one. I would need to do it sanz kids, and there is no way Katie would let me abandon her for that long.
I had the same rubbing issue with the exhaust pipe. i cut mine off with a sawzall in front of the shackle bolt. You can also reverse the shackle bolt and run the nut outboard. That helps a bit too. Over the years I have played with turning different sections of the exhaust and /or muffler in order to get the highest ground clearance and best angle at the rear of the vehicle. With the lift and adequate bump stops, you don't really need the bend over the axle tube. A custom shop can run straight pipes, but i have never been that tricky. Especially when the stock replacemetn is less than 30 bucks.
Drums are a finicky thing. First advice, get a drum brake tool. It looks like a cross between a set of pliers and some horse dentist tool. It has picks and hooks all over the place for stretching springs and pre-loading the brakes. You can do the work with regular pliers and screwdrivers, but the tool is worth it.
The parking brake comes out pretty easily. remove tension at the handle end of the cable first, then pull the ball out of the brake shoe where it attaches. Install is that backwards. You may find that you can get better clearance for the cables with a set off of a grand cherokee. That would give you better down travel. Otherwise, you may find that you should run it under the exhaust or risk pulling it off.
That is good news about the dd. A new Jeep in the family is always cause to celebrate. I know you don't deal with cold weather much, so why not a convertible or a classic car? I have always wanted a VW Karmann Ghia. If I was buying a backup for my Jeep that did not need to do double duty as a tow rig, I would get that. Why not?
If I got an rubicon, I would have a 3.5 inch lift and 35s under it within a month, and sell the cherokee. I know myself to well.
The 3b is doing well. It gets around 11mpg. That is only a guess, since the speedo cable was broken, and i only replaced it last weekend before the ride. When I went on the ride, I figured out that the Odometer worked, but the speedometer needle return spring got stuck and now it still reads that we are doing 55 in the garage. Needless to say, I have not really been able to check the mileage accurately.
That said, it was raining on the trail ride, and i was forced to put the bikini top on. I hated it. The Jeep is just so much fun to drive that even that much of a top was a downer. I don't miss the radio. I can't hear my cell ringing. It is like being on a harley. Freedom.
I love it.
You enjoy your independence day as well. Light some fireworks, but watch out for the grass.(and your fingers)
I had the same rubbing issue with the exhaust pipe. i cut mine off with a sawzall in front of the shackle bolt. You can also reverse the shackle bolt and run the nut outboard. That helps a bit too. Over the years I have played with turning different sections of the exhaust and /or muffler in order to get the highest ground clearance and best angle at the rear of the vehicle. With the lift and adequate bump stops, you don't really need the bend over the axle tube. A custom shop can run straight pipes, but i have never been that tricky. Especially when the stock replacemetn is less than 30 bucks.
Drums are a finicky thing. First advice, get a drum brake tool. It looks like a cross between a set of pliers and some horse dentist tool. It has picks and hooks all over the place for stretching springs and pre-loading the brakes. You can do the work with regular pliers and screwdrivers, but the tool is worth it.
The parking brake comes out pretty easily. remove tension at the handle end of the cable first, then pull the ball out of the brake shoe where it attaches. Install is that backwards. You may find that you can get better clearance for the cables with a set off of a grand cherokee. That would give you better down travel. Otherwise, you may find that you should run it under the exhaust or risk pulling it off.
That is good news about the dd. A new Jeep in the family is always cause to celebrate. I know you don't deal with cold weather much, so why not a convertible or a classic car? I have always wanted a VW Karmann Ghia. If I was buying a backup for my Jeep that did not need to do double duty as a tow rig, I would get that. Why not?
If I got an rubicon, I would have a 3.5 inch lift and 35s under it within a month, and sell the cherokee. I know myself to well.
The 3b is doing well. It gets around 11mpg. That is only a guess, since the speedo cable was broken, and i only replaced it last weekend before the ride. When I went on the ride, I figured out that the Odometer worked, but the speedometer needle return spring got stuck and now it still reads that we are doing 55 in the garage. Needless to say, I have not really been able to check the mileage accurately.
That said, it was raining on the trail ride, and i was forced to put the bikini top on. I hated it. The Jeep is just so much fun to drive that even that much of a top was a downer. I don't miss the radio. I can't hear my cell ringing. It is like being on a harley. Freedom.
I love it.
You enjoy your independence day as well. Light some fireworks, but watch out for the grass.(and your fingers)
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